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Anne Fortier is the author of two international best-selling dual timeline mysteries that dig deep into our favorite stories, stories that are deep in the psyche of Western culture. First in Juliet, exploring the Romeo and Juliet tragedy, and then in The Lost Sisterhood, the single-breasted Amazons of antiquity and asking, is there a secret Amazon chapter still operating out there, a bit like a female Knights of the Templar?
They’re fanciful, inspirational books and Anne was a delightful interview subject. I would never have known about her except for a recommendation from one of our Binge Reading fans, Tracy. A big shout out to you Tracy for suggesting we talk to Anne. I am sure you will enjoy the result.
Hi there, I’m your host Jenny Wheeler and in Binge Reading today Anne tells us how she responded when, as a 13-year-old would-be author, an editor told her “good literature doesn’t have happy endings.” Happily, Anne ignored his or her advice, and her story does.
But before we get to Anne, just a reminder. Binge Reading is now on Patreon, and we would love, value, cherish your support there. For the equivalent of a cup of coffee a month, you will get exclusive fortnightly bonus content, and the satisfaction of knowing you are helping to support popular fiction authors like Anne at the same time. Check out the details at https://www.patreon.com/thejoysofbingereading
We’ve got E- three copies of Anne’s latest book The Lost Sisterhood to give away to three lucky readers in our Royal House Giveaway. Enter the draw on our website, www.thejoysof bingereading.com/giveaway and you have a chance to win!
Six things you’ll learn from this Joys of Binge Reading episode:
- From Denmark to America – Anne’s adventurous life
- The Doco that proved film wasn’t for her
- How she nearly got her Mum arrested for bank robbery
- Why academics welcome popularization of ancient stories
- Romeo and Juliet before Shakespeare
- The magic of the Amazon story
Where to find Anne Fortier:
Website: https://www.annefortier.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AnneFortierBooks/
Twitter: @AnneFortier
Goodreads: https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3024821.Anne_Fortier
Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Sisterhood-Novel-Anne-Fortier/dp/0345536223/
Pinterest: https://www.pinterest.ca/AFortierAuthor/_saved/
What follows is a “near as” transcript of our conversation, not word for word but pretty close to it, with links to important mentions.
But now, here’s Anne.
Introducing historical fiction author Anne Fortier
Jenny Wheeler: Hello there, Anne, and welcome to the show. It’s so good to have you with us.
Anne Fortier: Thanks so much, Jenny. It’s wonderful to talk with you.
Jenny Wheeler: I think perhaps this might be the furthest that we have reached in the show, because you’re talking from Denmark and I’m in New Zealand, so that’s got a lovely feel to it.
Anne Fortier: I think it’s wonderful. It is always a little bit confusing with the time zone, but when we meet in literature, there is no time zone, there’s no day and night. We are just in this special space together, and I love that space.
Jenny Wheeler: You have got two wonderful books to your credit. They have both been international best sellers. We will get onto talking about them. Both of them have a very original premise that the story is hung around, and it impresses me that you are a person who has a spirited approach to your writing, and so I was captivated by this quote that was in the back of one of your books.
An editor told you once there are no happy endings in good literature and you say, I knew I would never write good literature at that point. I think you were only a very young person when this exchange took place. Tell us about that.
Anne Fortier: I was one of those children who was a little bit eccentric. I think that’s a nice way to phrase it, if children can be eccentric. But I was strange, I was weird, and I was always writing and always thinking.
Thanks to Mum – Learning to be your own person at a young age
My mom was, and still is, one of these lovely ladies who doesn’t want to do anything that is conformist in any way, so we were listening to Italian opera very loudly out the windows and the neighbors thought we were crazy.
I was one of those kids who was hazed in school and teased, and I retreated into my little corner with my grandfather’s typewriter and typed up these stories. I just could not live in that, because when you write a book you live in that space, and I needed a space with happy endings. So, when he said that to me, there was not a moment’s doubt. I didn’t think to myself what he probably wanted me to realize – oh, I’ve got to stop writing these happy endings, these romantic stories. No, no, I just thought, well, that’s it for me then. I’m not going to change how I write, because this is my happy space.
Jenny Wheeler: How old were you when you had that revelation?
Anne Fortier: I was 13.
Jenny Wheeler: Remarkable. You have published two books so far, and I guess there are probably quite a few manuscripts that haven’t seen the light of day if you’ve been madly writing, but the one we are talking about today, the latest one, is called The Lost Sisterhood. It tackles the centuries long fascination that our culture has had with the Amazons, the mythical or not-so-mythical female warriors of ancient Greek literature. Tell us a bit about how this story formed for you.
Anne Fortier’s fascination with the Amazonian culture
Anne Fortier: It’s a very good question because I actually had that idea before I wrote Juliet, which was the book that came out four years earlier. Juliet just sort of happened and I had to write it, but before that I had been working on the Amazon idea for years.
I grew up in academia. I spent a lot of time in dusty libraries in Oxford and elsewhere, and every time I had to read through Latin literature, whenever I saw the word Amazon, I stopped. Ooh, there they are. I suppose I made these little mental escapes and I made little notes about the Amazons and a picture formed for me about them.
Based on all I found when I wasn’t really looking for them – I was looking for other things for my thesis – I had this treasure box of things I knew about the Amazons, and also some of the lesser-known things such as the myth that I draw on in this book. I like the early stories, and the earliest story of the Amazons was actually from North Africa and suggests that that they were from what was called ancient Libya.
They had a queen called Myrina and she was a fearsome warrior, which is very different from some of the Greek stories you hear where they were all horse people coming down from the Steppes, from the East and so on. I wanted to merge the known and the unknown myths of the Amazons. It was a tall, ambitious order in that book, it sure was.
A story of an academic risking her credibility to tell women’s stories
Jenny Wheeler: It is a dual timeline story, and you have an academic who, almost against her better judgment, is drawn into a search for Amazon leftovers on an ancient site. She recognizes that being involved in this research is probably going to harm her academic career because there isn’t a great deal of credibility associated with it, but she can’t help herself. She just is drawn into it, isn’t she?
Anne Fortier: She is. It’s funny because when I was doing all this research, that was a few years before the whole Me Too thing took off, and before Wonder Woman. I was a little bit ahead of my time, I’m afraid. Had that book come out when Wonder Woman came out, it would have been much bigger, but it came out a few years earlier.
People had no idea who the Amazons were, and that was too bad because in academia at the time and in the world at large, I think people thought, that’s ridiculous. This idea of these women is just silly. In academia, for sure. I’m trying to be quite truthful in my description of the prejudice against these things. But now things have happened that have changed the atmosphere, but there is also more respect for research into women and women in the ancient world. In fact, I think you probably would get money for funding if you applied for that now.
Also, something important has happened in our scientific capabilities. I tried to bring some of this research into the book, without being heavy-handed. What has happened is that we are now able to go in and DNA test things that we couldn’t DNA test before.
History is changing fast, and stories once scorned are being considered
Back in the day, when male and female scholars scoffed at the idea of these female warriors, that is because they didn’t realize that some decades later we would be able to do DNA testing that showed that, lo and behold, some of those skeletons that were found with weapons and horses, buried the way you would bury a male warrior, were female.
That is something we now know, but it is only in the last few years they’ve been able to do that. All of a sudden Diana, the main character, is not quite as controversial anymore. But in the book she is absolutely cutting edge, and she is risking something in her pursuit there.
Jenny Wheeler: Those skeletons you’re talking about, where were they found buried?
Anne Fortier: I can tell you that there’s been a lot of this going on in Russia and in the former Soviet Union. From the Steppes going into the Black Sea area, they have boxes and boxes full of skeletons and skulls. We might think that you can tell female and male bones apart, but it’s actually quite hard and sometimes you don’t find everything, you just find the skull.
But apparently female skulls are softer and rounder and you want to touch them. As I always also bring out in the book, when the woman goes through childbirth, something happens to her pelvis. There is a certain stress on the pelvis that can sometimes be seen in the skeleton later on. The damage done is still there. You can see it sometimes, but not always.
Digging into the mysterious origins of Amazon myths and history
Jenny Wheeler: It is interesting that it partly supports the idea of them coming from the Steppes, because you did research for this book in Tunisia, didn’t you?
Anne Fortier: Well actually, I was there before I thought of this book. What is funny about this is that I was traveling in all of these places before I was looking for the Amazons. When I wrote the book, I went back in my mind, back in my research and back in my notes and my photographs, to look at what I had actually seen. Everything was very vivid in my mind.
I did go to Germany, I went to Kalkriese, to Teutoburger Wald in search of the Amazons, because at that point I knew what I was looking for. And I found it, but back in the day, when I was traveling in Tunisia and Greece and walking through dusty excavation sites with friends – and the Rebecca character is based on one of my friends who was the driving force behind our archeological endeavors in Knossos – all those travels and all those excavations I visited, that was before I was writing the book.
Jenny Wheeler: But it still came in useful when you started to write. I wondered about the Wonder Woman franchise because that’s been incredibly successful. I looked them up after I had read your book, and they are now in the middle of producing the third one in that franchise, aren’t they?
Professors excited when contemporary culture takes up old stories
Anne Fortier: They are. I saw the first one and of course I love the fact that it’s the Amazons, but I don’t know. I think it’s wonderful but there is something slightly corny about the Marvel franchise, but that’s a winning formula. It’s campy, it’s corny on purpose and we love it. It is a part of our culture to love that sort of thing, and I love it too, but I want a little more grit in those Amazons. It’s too easy, too shiny.
Jenny Wheeler: I imagine it was a bit challenging for you as an academic. There is probably a huge amount of historical discrepancy there.
Anne Fortier: Well, it’s funny you say that because I have very good friends who are professors around the world in ancient languages and it always impresses me how much these people love it anytime there is a mention in pop culture of the ancient world, because it makes people interested in it.
These people are not snobs. They actually love it. I remember when Gladiator came out many years ago. They loved it because it brought students into the department who wanted to learn Latin and learn about the Roman Empire all over again.
Jenny Wheeler: The most exciting part of the premise, and I hope I’m not giving anything away when we talk about this, is that there is an underlying idea that there might be a secret Amazon culture still living somewhere in the world today. That is a lovely little kind of secret, a bit like the Knights Templar in female form. Do you think that idea resonates with contemporary audiences?
The delightful fantasy of an ancient secret society for women
Anne Fortier: I hope so. It’s certainly one of my personal fantasies. I don’t think we need to let men keep the secret societies to themselves, do we? Why can’t we have a secret society? I think a lot of women feel that we have a sort of a sisterhood. We have an understanding. We know what’s going on. Like the old joke goes – when the phone rings, the woman says, do you want to talk to the one in charge or the one who knows what’s going on? Do you want to talk to the man or the woman?
We are a lot of people who know what’s going on, but we operate at – I don’t want to say a lower level, but we quietly make things happen and we don’t necessarily tell everybody about it. I think a lot of women will have this idea in their hearts of a secret sisterhood that we belong to. I certainly do. Maybe I’m too romantic, but I like to think so.
Jenny Wheeler: We have mentioned your first book. It takes the story of Romeo and Juliet and brings it into the contemporary world, as well as going back to the very original story that predated the Shakespearian version. One of the things that impressed me was that you seem to know that play incredibly well.
Anne Fortier: Thank you very much. I knew the play before, but here’s a little secret. I never really liked it. I remember seeing it a couple of times as a high school student and reading it in high school, and I didn’t care for it. As you know, I don’t like things that don’t end well, I want happy endings, so that was a strike against it. It is just too dumb the way things go so wrong, and how can she let him talk her into this, and these frustrations.
Of course, I love the language. I love what Shakespeare does with the story, but I have an argument with this play, and I try to bring that into the book. I won’t give anything away, but the characters in the book really have it out over whether Romeo was a hero or not. They really bat that idea around – what is heroic about this play? What’s commendable, and how can we change this play so that it’s satisfying? How can we change the story, and create a happy ending?
The origins of another ancient story – Romeo and Juliet
Jenny Wheeler: The key character inherits a key to a safety box in Siena after her great Aunt Rose dies, and she’s supposedly going back there to find some family treasure. What she finds is this incredible link that her family has, right back to the Romeo and Juliet story, and that the so-called curse, the “plague on both their houses” still exists today.
That’s a great setup for a story, especially the Romeo character she supposedly has to get on with. They have an instant dislike when they first meet, so that makes it even more interesting.
Anne Fortier: I certainly love that part of it. That was inspired by my many travels in Italy also. I had an old professor once who said, we modern people think we’re so scientific and so rational, but we are just as irrational as the ancients were. They had their oracles, and we have our computers. It’s the same darn thing.
There is truth to that. I do think humans are engineered to be superstitious. We’re engineered to be spiritual, and the shadow side is that we believe also in curses. We want to believe in goodness and in a great power of creativity and love, but we also are sensitive to a sensation of curses and evil.
When you go to Italy, it walks among you. The Italians are so intuitive, they’re sort of clairvoyant. Their minds transcend what’s going on. I have such respect for their insights – as I say, I think I should call it intuition – and the way they see things we don’t see. Well, I don’t see them until they point them out, and then I feel them.
How Romeo and Juliet pre-dates Verona and Shakespeare
It is very hard even for me to put words on this, but the Italians taught me the power of talking about curses, talking about someone who can have an evil hand, someone who can have evil eyes, and intuitively, I feel it too. When I’m there, I understand it and I take it with me. That is how that got into the story. It’s from my friends in Siena and in Italy. It’s really there, it’s not just a fancy I came up with. It’s real.
Jenny Wheeler: It was a visit to Siena that sparked that story, I believe.
Anne Fortier: Absolutely. My mother has traveled in Italy a lot. She also lived and worked there when she was younger, and she wanted me to come and experience Siena. When we were there, she was the one who told me she had discovered that the first version of the Romeo and Juliet story, which was written hundreds of years before Shakespeare’s version of the same story, was set in Siena.
I immediately thought, wow, that is amazing. I had no idea that Romeo and Juliet was not a story Shakespeare invented. That was how little I knew at the time about Shakespeare. Later of course I realized that he had a story scout who found stories for him all over Europe, and would bring them back and say, hey Will, look what I found. Great story. Can you put it through your magic machine?
He did, but that story was from the late 15th century and set in Siena with a pair of very different characters.
Valuable help from Anne’s mother in Italian research
Jenny Wheeler: Your mother helped you with quite a bit of the research I understand. From what I read, at the time you were still working full-time in other areas, and you would lob a query to her, and she would go and find the answer for you.
Anne Fortier: Absolutely. I couldn’t have done it without her. It was a fantastic partnership because I was in the States working on a documentary about The Finnish Winter War, which meant that a lot of that material ended up in The Lost Sisterhood because I had been working on that documentary. But I could not just fly back and forth to Italy all the time, as much as I wanted to. I didn’t have the time and I couldn’t afford it.
(The Emmy Award winning documentary Fire and Ice: The Winter War of Finalnd and Russia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byro0-288AU)
But mom was in Italy all the time, so whenever she said, I’m going to go back to Siena in a couple of weeks, what do you want, what’s on the list, I would give her a list of photos, floor plans, and specific things like, there’s a hospital there that dates back before the bubonic plague. Mom, could you find a way to get into the basement, see what’s going on there, and draw me a floor plan? And she would. She would find someone and sweet talk them.
The worst one was saying to her mom, I need to break into this bank. Could you go into the bank and see where the cameras are and how would you break into this bank? She went into this bank and sat down with her pad and started drawing the floor plan discreetly.
Anne Fortier and what came before writing her two novels
At some point it became uncomfortable because In Italy they have guns, they have these huge guns. These guys started looking at her, and I think they really thought I was planning to rob the bank. So she went out again. She said it was close.
Jenny Wheeler: That brings us beautifully into talking a little about your wider career. You have written these two wonderful books, but you have had an amazing career apart from that, including transitioning from Denmark to the US. Tell us something about your background before you got into these books. Remarkably, English is not your first language, but you have made a remarkable job of mastering it.
Anne Fortier: You’re very kind. Thank you. I appreciate it. I come from Denmark, so that’s a very small language group. If you want to go anywhere, you’ve got to learn languages and you start with English, obviously, so I had to as well. I always wanted to work in media, and so my education was history of ideas and communication. I worked in television and then I went to the States.
Writing was a hobby for me. I never thought I could actually be a professional writer. I never thought that could be my career. I always thought I’d have to have a side gig in television or something. That is how I started working on, and then made the documentary.
Not made for television – Anne Fortier’s foray into TV production
But it was too stressful for me. I don’t have the makeup to be a television person. It’s too hard. It’s not physically hard, but you have to be rather ruthless in television. You have to cut people off and you have to negotiate with producers who are only thinking about the quota, the money, being somewhere.
Sometimes you have to interrupt some sweet old person who has been waiting for you all day. Like in Finland, sitting from early morning in his old war uniform, waiting for Hollywood to arrive. And Hollywood arrives – that’s what they thought we were. Hollywood comes, and then your executive producer says, no, I can’t interview him. His voice is not good. We’re moving on.
Then having to have that conversation and insisting, I don’t care. You can pretend you run the camera, save your bloody tapes, don’t put a tape in, but make it look like you do. We are going to stay and we are going to hear this guy’s story or I’m going to kill you. I really felt sometimes I was going to kill him. Maybe that sounds a little pathetic, but that’s the kind of person you have to be, and I couldn’t do that. I could not be in between the human being and the executive producer. I can’t be that buffer.
I’m the kind of person – I need to be in my pajamas. I need to sort of shuffle around a little dazed, try to remember my own name because I’m thinking so deeply about my stories, and just sit down and write and not have to worry so much. You will get a 500-page manuscript from me before you get a 10-line bio, because those kinds of administrative things, I can’t do it.
Is there one thing you’ve done more than any other that explains success?
It’s the same when I was in school. My teachers were always saying, Anne, this is not a novel, it’s a physics report or it’s a social studies report. It is not a novel. I’m going to have to give you a bad grade. I got really bad grades for those social studies reports, I’m afraid.
Jenny Wheeler: That leads on beautifully to the question I like to ask everyone. Is there one thing you’ve done more than any other in your writing career that’s contributed to your success? Having two books published as you have and sold internationally – I think Juliet went to 30 countries, and they are both under development in some form or other for TV and film – how did you manage to break through in that way? Was there something special that you did?
Anne Fortier: That’s a very good question. I will have to start by saying that I had to listen to my mother. Growing up I listened to my mother, and I kept listening to her as a source of inspiration and encouragement. Then my husband who could talk me back to believing I could do it, when I thought I couldn’t. I could not have done it without those two wonderful people.
I will also say, and I know this because a lot of people approach me now, they want me to read what they’ve written or not written, or listen to ideas and so on, but I was brought up to be a very hard worker. I was brought up to finish something and make it really good before I started going out and talking about it. I think that is one way where I had a head start, a bit of an upper hand.
Breaking into television world as an outsider
I came forward with something that was already finished. It was already triple checked. It was a good product that I offered. I didn’t try to work through some connections because I didn’t have any connections. I didn’t try to cold call someone or elevator pitch someone. I read the to-do list. What do you do? What do you not do? I followed all the advice on the internet.
Before that, I got the book about how to get published, and I read from page one, and I followed it. I never knew anyone. I was an immigrant. I was a nobody. I followed those suggestions on how to do everything, and then I just did it. I worked hard. I’m proud to say that, because that’s how my mum brought me up, to work hard, never assume. Never think you can just waltz in and pitch someone an idea unless you have it ready.
Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. Turning to Anne as reader, because this is The Joys of Binge Reading, and we love to know what you like to read and what you would recommend to listeners for reading. This is a little bit in the genre and entertainment area, but we’re interested very widely. What are you reading and what would you recommend?
Anne Fortier: I love that you asked this question. I was an avid reader as a child, and I would absolutely binge read – are you ready for this? – Barbara Cartland. I’m telling you, I could binge read Barbara Cartland and Enid Blyton, The Famous Five, when I was a kid, all of those kinds of things. I would have two huge bags with books going home on all sorts of holidays to read. I read and I read, and I read the whole library twice over. But always with happy endings, of course.
When growing up, one of the books that really inspired me was Katherine Neville’s The Eight. Do you know that one?
Jenny Wheeler: No, I don’t.
Inspired by Katherine Neville’s book ‘The Eight’ and others
Anne Fortier: Oh, my goodness, Jenny, it is amazing. That is a dual time story as well, and I recommend it to anyone who loves an adventure. When you read that, which I hope you will, you will see how that inspired me to do the dual time narrative. I loved that book.
I love Jane Johnson, The Tenth Gift. It’s a shocking book, about piracy, and really challenges you. She also plays with dual times. That is wonderful. I also love, and this is more highfalutin, but I was very inspired by Umberto Ecco’s Foucault’s Pendulum. I never could really get The Name of the Rose, but Foucault’s Pendulum was a fantastic book that I would recommend.
But I’m going to tell you what I’m bingeing on right now, what’s on my bedside table. Right now, I’m in Denmark. I live in Canada, but I’m in Denmark with my mother. We had a little health issue, and so I am here with mom. I had to leave in a hurry, and I’ve been here for three months, and we’re working through it all. But when I go into my room at night and I’m all by myself and I have to relax, I read Louis L’Amour.
Jenny Wheeler: Oh, really?
Anne Fortier: Yes, those cowboy stories. They are written probably for men, I suppose, but they’re about honest young people who are trying to do the right thing. I need to be in that space, cowboys with guns and horses and sincere young men who are working to civilize a wild country. I love that.
What is Anne Fortier working on in the next 12 months?
Jenny Wheeler: Turning to the next year or so, what is on for you at the moment with your writing? Do you have new projects under development?
Anne Fortier: I do. I actually worked on a book that turned out not to be the right thing. That took me three years and then I started something else. It has been a few years since The Lost Sisterhood came out because I have been searching for the exact right thing.
Everybody wants a new Juliet, but I think I’ve got it. I finished the first draft last year, and now I’m editing it and it’s huge. I promised my husband that I would never write such a huge book again, but I’m afraid this is pretty huge too. We are going to go back to some famous Greek mythological people and present day, so it’s going to be a dual time narrative again, with some famous names. Hopefully, a bit shocking and sensual and all that.
At the same time, I am working with people to turn Juliet and The Lost Sisterhood into scripts for a TV series. It has been ongoing for years, there have been people trying to turn Juliet into film and then television, and multiple deals and negotiations. It all comes down to the fact that nobody has been able to write a good script, or we have not had a writer who did what I wanted and what anyone wanted, so I decided I am going to do it myself.
Finding Anne Fortier online
Fortunately, I have a wonderful mentor out in LA who is holding my hand and inspiring me and saying Anne, you can do this. Hopefully, something will come of this very shortly. We have been very close to signing various deals, we had a signed deal too, and nothing worked. But I am hoping that we will see those two stories, or at least one of them, on TV very soon.
Jenny Wheeler: That sounds wonderful. Where can your readers find you online, and do you like to relate to your readers online?
Anne Fortier: I love to. I’m not the best at it. I’m not very good at social media. I have a Twitter account and I don’t tweet. I started Instagram, but I don’t post anything on Instagram. I’m old fashioned. Facebook is probably a good place. I haven’t checked Facebook for months because I’m here in Denmark and things are a little hectic, but during periods when I remember my name and who I am, I do go, and I do check and I do answer questions. I post things when I have something to say. I don’t want to post things when I don’t have anything to say. I think that’s cheesy.
I have a website, www.annefortier.com. It is probably a total mess right now because I was in the process of re-doing it when I had to go to Denmark, but I’m there and people can contact me. I do coaching online as well. If anybody is writing a book, I do coach special projects – if it’s a project with a happy ending. No, just kidding! I do prefer happy endings, but I do occasionally coach projects through Skype or Zoom or something, so if someone is sitting out there with a project or something they’re writing, no matter what stage they are at, I do coach and it is something I enjoy tremendously. So that is a possibility. Contact me through the website.
Jenny Wheeler: I am sure you will get some takers on that wonderful advice. Thank you so much, Anne. It’s been wonderful having you with us today.
Anne Fortier: Thank you so much, Jenny. It was so exciting to spend time with you and talk about books and reading. It’s my happy place, so thank you for giving that to me today.
If you enjoyed hearing about Anne’s books you may also enjoy . . .
Allison Pataki’s World Changing Women on The Joys of Binge Reading podcast.
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